When revolutionaries gathered in Philadelphia to set up the United States of America, they may have had the Pirate Republic founded eighty years earlier in Nassau in mind.
Having not read the literature (or all of the fiction) you referenced I’d offer that I believe it likely Jefferson studied the Nassau pirates deliberately. I would not say that he was influenced by them, but if you’re trying to charter a new democracy you’d be a fool not see look at the existing scholarship and experiments.
Yeah he strikes me as the kind of guy to be thorough. But I imagine we'll never be able to prove it. Still kinda wild that it never gets talked about as being part of the philosophical underpinnings, except in obscure corners of academia. I guess nobody wants to sully the reputation?
The freed slaves on the planet variously named Verdant Vista or Congo or Torch were not pirates. The actual pirates in the Honorverse, mostly operating in the Silesian Confederacy, are extremely nasty and not the sorts of people you'd think of as building a decent democratic nation.
Beyond that, nation-building themes come up pretty often in science fiction but I'm not sure how specific your criteria are. Examples that come to mind range from classic Heinlein, both in *The Moon is a Harsh Mistress* and *Tunnel in the Sky*, to Stirling's Nantucket series starting with *Island in the Sea of Time*, all of which emphasize conservative notions of civic duty. More libertarian perspectives come up in Vernor Vinge's work, both in the series starting with *The Peace War* and *The Ungoverned*, and in the Zones of Thought universe, particularly in *A Deepness in the Sky*. It is often the case both in these books and in real life that the people trying to form a new society were seen as outlaws by the more established nations around them. As for the more specific case of nation-building among people thought of as pirates, the only example that immediately comes to mind that may fit is the Outer Planets Alliance in *The Expanse* (which had just the sorts of instability problems that you mention).
Yeah, I know, but it really did remind me of that situation. Possibly because so a few books I've read have really talked about the difficulty of nation building when it's being done by relatively marginalized and illiterate people.
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a good example of what I mean, because it really did feel like relatively the little of the book focused on the difficulty of Nation building. To me it felt a bit tacked on to the end, and more of an opportunity for the author to make potshots at committees and organizations than actually having the protagonist and plot revolve around setting up a functional government. Like, yeah, Prof does it. But it's dripping with condescension in a very "this is bad but there is no good" sort of way. Fundamentally I don't think Heinlein actually liked government. So little attention is given to building a good one. The Loonies end up feeling more like a libertarian wish fulfillment society than anything else. I'm not opposed to the goals of libertarianism, I just don't really feel like he dug deep enough into the minutia and likely pros and cons of it for it to feel meaty in the way that he really dug into how to make a revolution work.
I've read the first two or three books of the Expanse, but it sounds like I should keep going and keep an eye on the outer planets stuff! I wasn't particularly interested in it before, but now I have this context to give me something to pay attention to.
As I try to remember the setting I'm not sure how much the Outer Planets Alliance were thought of as pirates, so they may not be a great example. Earth and Mars both thought of the OPA as terrorists. So I'm not sure if I have any SF examples of self-government among pirates. (Plenty of SF involving pirates, but not intersecting with the SF about building functioning societies.)
I see what you mean about The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, but Heinlein wasn't an anarchist. The settlement in Tunnel in the Sky wasn't large but I remember a good bit of discussion and plot development about how they should govern themselves, and about seeing political rivals as still being legitimate members of the community.
It's probably been 20+ years since I read Tunnel in the Sky. I'll see if my kid is up for a listen and try to refresh my memory.
For what it's worth, I don't think he was an anarchist. But it was a very distinctly libertarian thought experiment.
For great example of seeing political rivals as important members of the community, I'm a big fan of the 1632 series. The "villain" in book one ends up being a community hero in book two or so, I think he ends up Admiral of their fleet.
Having not read the literature (or all of the fiction) you referenced I’d offer that I believe it likely Jefferson studied the Nassau pirates deliberately. I would not say that he was influenced by them, but if you’re trying to charter a new democracy you’d be a fool not see look at the existing scholarship and experiments.
Yeah he strikes me as the kind of guy to be thorough. But I imagine we'll never be able to prove it. Still kinda wild that it never gets talked about as being part of the philosophical underpinnings, except in obscure corners of academia. I guess nobody wants to sully the reputation?
Jefferson's reputation isn't exactly unsullied in other respects?
I'm not saying he's a paragon of virtue, just that it wouldn't surprise me if he'd read this book. Say 60/40 in favor.
The freed slaves on the planet variously named Verdant Vista or Congo or Torch were not pirates. The actual pirates in the Honorverse, mostly operating in the Silesian Confederacy, are extremely nasty and not the sorts of people you'd think of as building a decent democratic nation.
Beyond that, nation-building themes come up pretty often in science fiction but I'm not sure how specific your criteria are. Examples that come to mind range from classic Heinlein, both in *The Moon is a Harsh Mistress* and *Tunnel in the Sky*, to Stirling's Nantucket series starting with *Island in the Sea of Time*, all of which emphasize conservative notions of civic duty. More libertarian perspectives come up in Vernor Vinge's work, both in the series starting with *The Peace War* and *The Ungoverned*, and in the Zones of Thought universe, particularly in *A Deepness in the Sky*. It is often the case both in these books and in real life that the people trying to form a new society were seen as outlaws by the more established nations around them. As for the more specific case of nation-building among people thought of as pirates, the only example that immediately comes to mind that may fit is the Outer Planets Alliance in *The Expanse* (which had just the sorts of instability problems that you mention).
Yeah, I know, but it really did remind me of that situation. Possibly because so a few books I've read have really talked about the difficulty of nation building when it's being done by relatively marginalized and illiterate people.
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a good example of what I mean, because it really did feel like relatively the little of the book focused on the difficulty of Nation building. To me it felt a bit tacked on to the end, and more of an opportunity for the author to make potshots at committees and organizations than actually having the protagonist and plot revolve around setting up a functional government. Like, yeah, Prof does it. But it's dripping with condescension in a very "this is bad but there is no good" sort of way. Fundamentally I don't think Heinlein actually liked government. So little attention is given to building a good one. The Loonies end up feeling more like a libertarian wish fulfillment society than anything else. I'm not opposed to the goals of libertarianism, I just don't really feel like he dug deep enough into the minutia and likely pros and cons of it for it to feel meaty in the way that he really dug into how to make a revolution work.
I've read the first two or three books of the Expanse, but it sounds like I should keep going and keep an eye on the outer planets stuff! I wasn't particularly interested in it before, but now I have this context to give me something to pay attention to.
As I try to remember the setting I'm not sure how much the Outer Planets Alliance were thought of as pirates, so they may not be a great example. Earth and Mars both thought of the OPA as terrorists. So I'm not sure if I have any SF examples of self-government among pirates. (Plenty of SF involving pirates, but not intersecting with the SF about building functioning societies.)
I see what you mean about The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, but Heinlein wasn't an anarchist. The settlement in Tunnel in the Sky wasn't large but I remember a good bit of discussion and plot development about how they should govern themselves, and about seeing political rivals as still being legitimate members of the community.
It's probably been 20+ years since I read Tunnel in the Sky. I'll see if my kid is up for a listen and try to refresh my memory.
For what it's worth, I don't think he was an anarchist. But it was a very distinctly libertarian thought experiment.
For great example of seeing political rivals as important members of the community, I'm a big fan of the 1632 series. The "villain" in book one ends up being a community hero in book two or so, I think he ends up Admiral of their fleet.